Yeah, I didn't know a lot about what was going on, but wow....

*huggles Malancaiwen*... you be careful, okay?


I hope people stop soon. =(

MareGathersWords wrote:

We haven't had as much press coverage here in USA as I would think, since the perps are Muslim youths. We didn't even hear about the disabled woman being burned. (

Weird, it's been all over the news here. Even made the front page of the local paper.
Anyway, I'm glad that they got a curfew installed, hopefully that'll do some good. They had some stories on NPR today about teachers and school staff standing guard at their schools all night so that the schools couldn't be vandalized. It must be exhausting to have this happen every night....

Take care of yourself

Malancaiwen wrote:

The problem is: what can be done to solve the problem? Violence will bring more violence, talking is not a solution either considering how the ones living in suburbs react to "talks", ... so what can be done? :/

In the end, you'll have to either kill them, deport them, or build more prisons and lock them up permanently. I don't see much alternative. It's quite obvious that they've no interest in being French, and no business in France.

Hi Malancaiwen!!! I hadn't seen you before either. PM if you fancy chatting about ponies/Paris...

The answer is not more violence, you might crush it temporarily but that'll create a new generation of militants, make more martyrs, drive the ringleaders further underground and create more problems in the future. Given their behaviour these people don't deserve a pat on the head - they've behaved disgustingly by burning buses, schools,etc. things which are in place to help them. But violence and repression are not the answer, Malancaiwen is right, it will bring more of the same.

And Rocket, where are you from? I think your views are rather... extreme. Personally speaking, I'm in France, but I've got 'no interest in being French'. I love French culture, I have heaps of French friends, I know how to cook ile flottante, but I'm always going to have a foreign passport. The difference is I'm an immigrant with a job who can speak the language. I haven't got a reason to riot.

As I said before, this situation could have happened just as easily in Berlin, Madrid or Amsterdam; it's just chance it's happened in Paris first. The problem is integration. The vast majority of immigrants were bought to Europe to work or from ex-colonies - now that there aren't enough jobs to go round and we don't own their country any more we can't just turn round and treat them as subhuman. It's that attitude that's created these problems in the first place.

You *have* business in France, though. As you said, you have a job, and you can speak the language. More importantly, you respect French laws and culture, and try to contribute positively to society. I'm sure you like France and the French, and wish them well. Those are probably strong elements in how you *got* the job you have.

That forms a rather extreme contrast with the denizens of the suburbs. They make little secret of their hatred and contempt for the French, the same French who welcomed them into their country, and provided them with state-subsidized housing, food, education and unemployment relief. Treating them well has been tried. The French have bent over backwards to integrate the immigrants into French society. It doesn't work, mainly because there's no interest in being French on the immigrants' parts. They want to keep their separate identity, but finance their lives with European largesse.

I'm sure quite a few of them would like jobs, and that if they had jobs, that might well settle them down, but where are those jobs to come from? The French are doing well to keep unemployment at 10%. French law focusses on the rights of the worker at the expense of corporations. Corporations can't maximize their profits enough to expand in the same way that American companies can, plus the labour laws make it very difficult to fire surplus workers. Companies aren't going to give anyone a chance unless they're sure in advance that they want that person on for the long term.

I'm sure you're aware of the fuss that's ongoing over the idea that the economy might be 'liberalized'. Without some way of making French business more competitive, the extra jobs simply aren't going to appear. The entire goal of the French economy is to maintain the status quo. That's a good, comfortable life for those who have jobs, but for those who don't, there's very little chance of getting them.

And you're completely correct that this could happen in any European nation with a large non-European immigrant population. Similar things have already happened in Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands, although not to the extreme that it's being taken in France.

The best thing would be if the French instituted an Anglo-saxon style of economics, so that there could be enough jobs for all. I can't see that happening in my lifetime, though.

The three options I gave are the only ones that I can see working. The immigrants don't want to be integrated, and the jobs aren't there in any case. I note with some interest that Sarkozy has started limited numbers of deportations today as well. It's a start, and probably the most humane solution.