True Story - cousin and his wife are both into stuff like Star Wars, Magic the Gathering, video games, etc. And they enjoy sports. To set up my talk, they also have a niece the was the ultimate Disney princess (aka spoiled). Anyways, they have their own baby and it's a girl.

They VOWED they would have none of that Disney Princess mess. Leia would be her only princess. Instead of Princesses, she would get soccer, Star Wars, etc. I remember them posting about that whole Star Wars thermos story that was going on awhile ago.

Anyways, daughter got first haircut and got to pick a sticker. WOULDN'T YOU KNOW SHE PICKED THE STICKER OF A DISNEY PRINCESS (the blonde one, like her and her mother). And she randomly fell in love with a small Cabbage Patch doll she saw another kids with - she liked it so much they eventually caved and bought it for her.

So, I think there are things that babies of certain genders are innately drawn to. Unless maybe they're being pressured in baby language by other babies?

I was one of four grand kids on dad's side, all girls. At grandma's house we got Tinker-Toys, Monopoly, Barbie, fire trucks, tea sets, baby dolls, coloring books - we got some of everything. I asked for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and got them.

I guess, basically I agree with what others are saying. Don't limit girls, but being too militant in the gender-neutral path is a bit much. If a little girl wants a doll, let her have a doll!

Going off of zuse's post, I want to add that I think it has a lot more to do with their personality than with "genetics," or whatever they are supposedly "naturally" drawn to (it could be possible somewhere that there is an entire family of women who all love barbies and tiaras, but every family I have ever encountered has always led to a variety of personalities). Some kids will get so used to seeing certain toys that they feel interested in picking something different that also appeals to them- possibly just for being different or because it is vaguely related in someway to what they are used to yet also different (of course, who knows? I am not a psychologist, only posting from my own childhood experience). There are other factors than just being raised at home- perhaps the child saw something a classmate or neighbor had, and they became interested in it. Hope that makes sense. Not very good at articulating myself.

Kids will like what they want to have - regardless of gender. My mum told me that when my older brother was coming up to his fifth brthday, he expressed a wish to have a toy vacuum cleaner for his birthday. It was a fairly popular toy of the time - had a tank full of multicoloured tiny foam balls, and when you pulled or pushed the vacuum along the floor, the foam balls would bounce about in the tank, giving the impression that you were sucking them up into the tank.

My father went absolutely nuts. No son of his was going to be playing with a nancy-boy toy like that, etc etc, and he bought my brother a plethora of toy cars, a garage, a mat with a road system on it.....which my brother never played with, according to Mum. He wanted that vacuum toy so much that my mum bought him one, and it was kept at our aunts house and my brother could only play with it there.

On the other hand, I wanted Lego. I wanted toy cars. And even though my brother never played with those cars, he wouldn't let me have them either, because they were 'boys toys'. Something he obviously learned from our father, as he really did not play with them himself, but because they were not toys for girls, it meant that I wans't allowed to touch them.

So sad, really. Lucky that I liked ponies really ^^ it kept my father just as happy, because his girl played with girls toys *eyeroll*

Rhini wrote:

Kaeldre wrote: I agree with what Mango said above. Kids should be allowed to play with whatever toy or game that strikes their fancy. These days, I think the whole gender stereotyping thing all boils down to parents being afraid of their children becoming a homosexual later in life.*shrugs* That's how I see it anyway. That is, unfortunately, the root cause of allll this fuss over girls toys vs boys toys etc. Parents don't want their kids to be gay. They're afraid if their girl plays with trucks or their boys with barbies that SOMEHOW that in any way is going to affect their sexuality later in life.

This reminds me of my sister-in-law (husband's brother's wife) in the way she raises her kids. The boy must only play with boy stuff and she even let him at the age of 4 or 5 watch TMNT and thinks it's ok that he shows violent tendencies e.g. trying to hit his little sister when he didn't want to let her play with one of his toys She's already encouraging him to be a lwayer just like her The girl is encouraged to play princess and her whole room is full of Disney Princess stuff and very pink and can only wear "girly" colors while the boy's room is very blue and filled with Cars and he must wear "boy colors". The girl is encouraged in wanting to become a princess when she's older. It's very strange that when she's so modern and really into her career as a lawyer that she raises her kids like that I think if they showed any interest in the gender "wrong" toy, she would put a stop to it out of fear for them "turning" gay She's also very homophobic and I don't think she understands that sexuality is something you're born with

My mom was also a bit strange when I was a kid, she let me play with my 2 favorite toys: MLP and Dino Riders, but wasn't much for my interest in "boy toys" and told me not so long ago that she fully expected me to tell her I am a lesbian (which I'm definitely not, not that there's anything wrong with being gay, I'm just not). She's not homophobic at all since she was perfectly ok with one of my brothers being gay, she just had an old fashioned perspective that I think has changed She thinks it's silly that any toy can "turn" someone gay, that it doesn't make a difference if a boy plays with dolls or not, if he's gay then a doll or two isn't going to influence his sexuality either way. It's also really sad that some people still think this way, my sister-in-law included

When I do have a child, he/she will be allowed to choose to play with whatever they want. Pressuring them into some deranged and old fashioned idea that they must only play with and wear "gender appropriate" toys and clothes is just silly

There's an entire book about this topic, called 'Cinderella Ate my Daughter', it talks about how toys perpetuate stereotypes in girls from a young age. If you're interested in the topic, it's a good read.

Not just toys, but the commercials themselves are very gender specific. It annoys me to no end.

DoctorMowinckel wrote:

There's an entire book about this topic, called 'Cinderella Ate my Daughter', it talks about how toys perpetuate stereotypes in girls from a young age. If you're interested in the topic, it's a good read.

I read an excerpt and I really don't like where she is coming from. I hate when pink and "girly stuff" is dismissed as worthless and that girls should be more like boys to be equal. I think that both girls and boys can benefit from embracing ideas that are thought to be "feminine". If there is nothing wrong with girls learning how to be competitive and stronger what is wrong with children of any gender learning to be a little more caring, a little gentler, and a little nurturing and to learn that there is nothing wrong with looking your best?

The question shouldn't be "why do girls have to buy Princesses?" but "why can't boys buy Princesses?"

Wardah wrote:

DoctorMowinckel wrote: There's an entire book about this topic, called 'Cinderella Ate my Daughter', it talks about how toys perpetuate stereotypes in girls from a young age. If you're interested in the topic, it's a good read. I read an excerpt and I really don't like where she is coming from. I hate when pink and "girly stuff" is dismissed as worthless and that girls should be more like boys to be equal. I think that both girls and boys can benefit from embracing ideas that are thought to be "feminine". If there is nothing wrong with girls learning how to be competitive and stronger what is wrong with children of any gender learning to be a little more caring, a little gentler, and a little nurturing and to learn that there is nothing wrong with looking your best? The question shouldn't be "why do girls have to buy Princesses?" but "why can't boys buy Princesses?"

Hmm I'll have to check out this book and see for myself I've been really interested in this kind of topic lately after a womens stduies class and a media class. I definitely think femininity needs to be put on an equal playing field with masculinity, which is I think why all of us that watch FIM love it so much. Being female is the normalized state of being, which is almost nevvver true. The male characters often step in to "fix" things, and that is never the case here. The girls stand up for themselves and are respected for just being themselves.

I will say the sterotype can go both ways too. Guys are often ridiculed when we're into what is sterotypically girly stuff. I got that firsthand when my GF dumped this past year when she found out I was into ponies. (She's not into collecting any toys, to be fair.)

Sterotypes are stupid for both genders. -_-

I don't think there's anything wrong with following natural gender roles, you know, the more feminine girls and more masculne males. However, if a little boy likes ponies (like mine does) I'm not about to freak out at him and rip it out of his hands. Certain lines do need to be drawn though so that kids do understand the differences between the genders. I really do think that some gender confusion can come from not having gender roles clearly defined from a young age.

Bunny-san wrote:

I don't think there's anything wrong with following natural gender roles, you know, the more feminine girls and more masculne males. However, if a little boy likes ponies (like mine does) I'm not about to freak out at him and rip it out of his hands. Certain lines do need to be drawn though so that kids do understand the differences between the genders. I really do think that some gender confusion can come from not having gender roles clearly defined from a young age.

That's the thing though Bunny, genders are not natural, and what we regard to be masculine or feminine is arbitrary. There are no hard set rules that exist anywhere about what is masculine or what is feminine. In fact, contrary to what we believe about females, in nature often times the female is the larger, more dominant and more aggressive part of the species. What it is to be feminine or masculine is different for everyone, it's what you make it.

Rhini wrote:

That's the thing though Bunny, genders are not natural, and what we regard to be masculine or feminine is arbitrary. There are no hard set rules that exist anywhere about what is masculine or what is feminine. In fact, contrary to what we believe about females, in nature often times the female is the larger, more dominant and more aggressive part of the species. What it is to be feminine or masculine is different for everyone, it's what you make it.

Amen, Rhini! I had a long musing post to add to this thread, but all your comments so far have been saying exactly what I was gonna say.

Bunny-san wrote:

I don't think there's anything wrong with following natural gender roles, you know, the more feminine girls and more masculne males. However, if a little boy likes ponies (like mine does) I'm not about to freak out at him and rip it out of his hands. Certain lines do need to be drawn though so that kids do understand the differences between the genders. I really do think that some gender confusion can come from not having gender roles clearly defined from a young age.

What exactly do you mean by gender roles?

Gender roles are a cultural thing. What may be a woman's "role" where you live is going to be different in another country.

Genders have differences physically, yes. But when you assign your kid's lot or role in life based on the reproductive organs they are born with, that's what causes all this strife and unfairness.

Also, I don't think something as simple has having a household without defined gender roles is going to cause gender confusion. I believe your gender identity and sexuality is determined at conception.

I also feel the whole gender identity/confusion thing is brought up because people feel the need to push gender roles. If you have a boy who clearly likes feminine things and acts feminine, that's fine. Or vice versa. Criticizing this makes them feel confused about their own gender identity. I believe if we didn't push these gender roles on everyone then there would no longer be gender identity crises among people.

I stated before my brother is gay. He was raised to be very masculine, hate gay people, and play with boy toys Now he has other 'boy toys' he likes better. But he says it wasn't his choice to be the way he is, and I believe him.

DazzleSurprise wrote:

What exactly do you mean by gender roles? Gender roles are a cultural thing. What may be a woman's "role" where you live is going to be different in another country. Genders have differences physically, yes. But when you assign your kid's lot or role in life based on the reproductive organs they are born with, that's what causes all this strife and unfairness. Also, I don't think something as simple has having a household without defined gender roles is going to cause gender confusion. I believe your gender identity and sexuality is determined at conception. I also feel the whole gender identity/confusion thing is brought up because people feel the need to push gender roles. If you have a boy who clearly likes feminine things and acts feminine, that's fine. Or vice versa. Criticizing this makes them feel confused about their own gender identity. I believe if we didn't push these gender roles on everyone then there would no longer be gender identity crises among people. I stated before my brother is gay. He was raised to be very masculine, hate gay people, and play with boy toys Now he has other 'boy toys' he likes better. But he says it wasn't his choice to be the way he is, and I believe him.

Thank you for this great post! It always bothers me so much when people feel they have to do any gender-herding at all. A person's "gender role" should be determined by that individual person, not by family or general society. We each have the individual right to decide who and what we are.

This is especially a sticking point for me on a personal level. I'm physically female, but my gender is androgynous (and if you could wave a magic wand and remove all my girly-bits without adding any guy-bits, I would be ecstatic!) To this day, I resent how, growing up, I was so often forced into "female roles" and made to "act like a lady" just because I have female reproductive organs. I was ridiculed or punished every time my "tomboy tendencies" came out.

"Oh, you don't need to take agriculture; that's for boys," I was told in high school before getting stuck unwillingly in home economics every single year. (By the way, I hate how learning to cook and sew and keep house is still so often considered "women's work". Guys should be able to learn to care for themselves too! Luckily, by the time I was a senior in high school in 1996, the school started allowing boys in home ec as an elective, but girls were still required to take the class.)

Or, another line I was given in driver's ed class when I was sixteen, "You don't need to learn to change a tire or check your car fluids; that's for men. If you have car trouble, you just need to wait patiently by your vehicle until someone stops to help you." I'm 32 now, and I *still* don't know how to change a tire. Luckily, a few years ago I was able to teach myself how to check the oil and transmission fluid with the aid of Google. But these are things I should have been taught as soon as I started driving, not things I should have had to teach myself because they weren't "for girls"!

Sorry for the rant, guys! I could honestly rage for days about the unfairness of forcing gender roles upon your kids or peers. My whole life, I've been made to feel there was something "wrong" with me because I have no desire to be female or even feminine in society's eyes. (Or masculine, but that topic doesn't really ever come up because of the whole me-being-physically-female thing.) For years to come, I'll be dealing with the psychological issues that came with being punished every time I tried to be myself.

I'm not "that girl" or "that guy", I'm just "that person". Which is what we should *all* be, regardless of sex, gender, or sexuality.

Mystagic wrote:

"Oh, you don't need to take agriculture; that's for boys," I was told in high school before getting stuck unwillingly in home economics every single year. (By the way, I hate how learning to cook and sew and keep house is still so often considered "women's work". Guys should be able to learn to care for themselves too! Luckily, by the time I was a senior in high school in 1996, the school started allowing boys in home ec as an elective, but girls were still required to take the class.) Or, another line I was given in driver's ed class when I was sixteen, "You don't need to learn to change a tire or check your car fluids; that's for men. If you have car trouble, you just need to wait patiently by your vehicle until someone stops to help you." I'm 32 now, and I *still* don't know how to change a tire. Luckily, a few years ago I was able to teach myself how to check the oil and transmission fluid with the aid of Google. But these are things I should have been taught as soon as I started driving, not things I should have had to teach myself because they weren't "for girls"!

Oh goodness, that's just awful - that women should *have* to sit about and wait for a man to come and do things that aren't "womanly". Stuff that.
I was raised by my mother alone from the age of 5, after my parents divorced and my father just wandered off (I did see him, but rarely). My mum in her turn lived alone from the age of 16, as her father died when she was tiny and her mum was very ill, and so Mum went into care, which ended when she reached 16 and she was spun out inot the world more-or-less alone.
She taught herself how to do most things, and so that I wouldn't ever have to be in the same situation, she taught me many things as I grew older - basic electric wiring (plugs, sockets, that kind of thing), how to put up shelves, hang wallpaper, cooking, how to manage finances - all the srots of things that I honestly believe ALL people ought to know regardless of whther they're male or female.
My OH is a very handy person (as in making and mending stuff) so there's little I have to do mending-wise in the house these days, but if I was living alone, it's good to know that I could manage to re-wire a plug or put some tiles on the bathroom wall without having to wring my hands in a girlish fashion and call for somebody to help me.

Re. the choices at school - in my school, for the first two years of senior school (aged 11-13) the girls and boys all did sewing (Textiles!) cooking and woodwork. In the third year, we could opt out of the ones that we didn't want to do, and as you might expect, the boys almost exclusively went for the woodwork/metalwork options, and the girls in the main did sewing and cooking, but at least we'd all had the chance to try all the options first, and weren't forced inot something *just because* it was the right thing for the genders.